Episode 69 - Guilty As Sin

In this episode of Teleios Talk, host Wendell Martens sits down with a very special guest—his daughter, Olivia—for an honest and heartfelt conversation about sin, salvation, and God’s plan for humanity. What begins with Olivia’s curious questions—“How did sin begin?” and “Why do we do things God told us not to do?”—unfolds into a deep yet accessible discussion of Genesis, the fall of Adam and Eve, and the meaning of sacrifice. Together, father and daughter wrestle with big truths: the reality of sin, the hope found in Jesus’ perfect sacrifice, and the importance of prayer in everyday life. With childlike honesty and biblical clarity, Olivia and Wendell explore how faith shapes our choices, why we fall short, and how God provides a way back to Him through Christ. This unique episode blends teaching, storytelling, and family dialogue to remind us that the gospel is for every generation.

Transcript

Guilty As Sin

Introduction

Teleios Talk:  Well, I have a very interesting Teleios Talk today. I'm going to be talking with my daughter. She came to me asking some questions and I thought it would be interesting to have a conversation with her. She's been very excited about joining me here on Teleios Talk and so I just like you to meet my daughter. This is Olivia Martens. Hi Olivia. How are you today?

Olivia: I'm good. How are you?

TT: I'm doing fine. So you had some questions for me about sin

How Did Sin Begin

O: How did sin begin? 

TT: How does sin begin? Well, you know, here's the thing about sin. Sin is the absence of goodness. And we were created in God's image and God is ultimately good, right? We've been reading through Genesis.

O: Yes

TT: And remember last night we were reading, and what did it say about man? Do you remember? No, you don't remember it said that man's heart is ultimately wicked. So what do you think that means for man's heart to be ultimately wicked?

O:  It means that part of their heart is good

TT: You think it means that part of the heart is good. Why do you say that? Do you feel that people need to have some goodness in them? 

O: Yes. 

TT: Yeah. So when the Bible says that a man's heart or a person's heart is ultimately evil is that hard to understand?

O: A bit.

TT: Why?

O: Because when you hear that then it's kind of like you say. “Oh look at this orange. It's delicious.” And then when you bite into it then it doesn't taste very good.

TT: So you feel it maybe someone has told you something that isn't right there. 

O: Yes.

TT: So which one do you think is right? Do you think it's right that the Bible says that our hearts are ultimately wicked; or, do you think it's right when you are in school and your teacher says everyone is basically good?

O: It's good that the Bible says that man's heart is, like, ultimately wicked. 

TT: Yeah, so what do you think that means when you think about what your teachers say or what other kids say in school about basically good?

O: Then I feel like they're biting into the fruit of good and evil from Adam and Eve.

TT: Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned the fruit of good and evil. You remember the story of Adam and Eve and the tree and you know how God said, “if you eat of this tree you will die.” But when they ate the fruit they didn't die, did they? 

O: Yes.

TT: Why do you think that is?

O: Because God said that they would die. But actually, the serpent was telling them that they would be like Jesus and they wouldn't die from the tree. And they didn't die because God was in them. 

TT: Okay, yeah. So when we talk about the fruit of the tree of good and evil, we talk about ‘where did evil come from’? When God created the garden and he created men. He had a plan for men. He had planned for you and for me to be with him forever.

O: Yes 

TT: God created us to be beings that worshiped Him. When you read in the book of Revelation it talks about how when we go to heaven we're going to spend eternity worshiping God, which is a pretty amazing thing. But by eating the fruit God said you will die and that meant that we would have to pay for our sin

O: I might have to pay to get into heaven.

TT: Yeah, so that's why it says when they ate the fruit, sin entered the world. Remember that verse in Genesis? The verse where sin entered the world?

O: Yeah.

TT: So when we sinned, we couldn't be in God's presence anymore, right?

O: Yes.

TT: That's why Adam and Eve were sent out of the garden. They were sent away from God's presence. But because God created us to be with Him, there had to be a way back, didn't there?

O: Yes.

TT: And so, you remember the story of Cain and Abel?

O: Yes.

TT: And what were Cain and Abel doing?

 O: They were worshipping God.

TT: And how did they express that worship?

 O: They...they made an altar and they put something on it. Cain did something that God would take up and Abel did something that God wouldn't.

TT: Okay. I think because Cain killed Abel, I think Abel brought an acceptable sacrifice, right? So this word sacrifice is what we call a payment for sin. So we had to make a payment for our sin and that sin is only paid by one thing and that is by death. And instead of killing us, God accepted the death of an animal in our place But then ultimately what happened? What was the final, the last, sacrifice that was made, that pain for everybody sins? Do you remember?

O: No.

TT: You don't remember?

O: No.

TT: Okay, so you remember the Christmas story?

O: Yes.

TT: What happened at Christmas?

O: God came into the world and it was the last sacrifice for everybody because Jesus; because God, was the Christmas story. And he was the person in us

TT: So Jesus came to earth for a specific reason, right? And you said it was the last sacrifice. So Jesus came in order to do two things. First of all he came to pay the price for our sin, right? 

O:Yes.

TT: But he came for one other reason, and that reason was to make that sacrifice available to everybody. 

O: Yes.

TT: Because up to that point It seems like only people who were Jewish, or people who were Hebrew,,were allowed to make sacrifices for the sins. Which means that there was a lot of people who weren't made sacrifices, which meant that their sins went unpaid for.

O: And they weren't doing the right things for God, because they were killing each other and then giving it to Jesus. And Jesus didn't take it because he was like, "Yeah, that's not good enough. I need something that you feel like it's gonna be dead forever. I need you to give me an animal of some sort or maybe something that you can get. And then you put it on there.” Not just kill someone and then put them on there for a sacrifice. Because then it's gonna be like, "Wow, that's so cool!" From one of the evil gods and then he's gonna take it up.

TT: So the sacrifice has to be acceptable to God, correct? Which is why in the story of Cain and Abel, God accepted the sacrifice of Abel, but not the sacrifice of Cain. And why do you think that is? Why do you think that one sacrifice was good and the other one wasn't?

O: Because Cain used something that God wouldn't take up, and Abel to use something that God would take up.

TT: Yeah. So we know in the Old Testament that God accepted both animal sacrifice and what he called grain offerings. So it means that ultimately Cain brought an offering of grain – which was a good sacrifice – except it wasn't acceptable for what the sacrifice meant. So this is the same like you had said about people sacrificing to other gods, to foreign gods. We know baal and molek, and God said it was a stench right? You know what it smells like when you walk past the bathroom after someone's used it? How it stinks? God said it was a stench in His nostrils, gross. But then the people who were supposed to be giving him proper sacrifices, were doing it for all the wrong reasons. And He said, “I don't accept your sacrifice”. He said when he talked to them through the prophets; He said, “your sacrifices have no value. I don't accept your sacrifices.” And so it had gotten to the point where people were not offering sacrifices for the right reason. And so that's why Jesus had to come, because he was the perfect sacrifice to take away our sin

O: And he also came because he thought that everybody could need a friend like him to be with us.

TT: Yeah, you know, it's good to have someone to talk to. That's why we pray to God. That's why we pray to Jesus. When we have problems in our life, we often pray to Jesus, don't we?

O: Yeah.

TT: But you know, when else we should pray to Jesus?

O: I don't know.

TT: When things are going well. And you say, "You know what, Jesus? I'm having a really good day today." But when you and your brother are playing together, you say, "Oh, Jesus, we're playing together so well. Thank you so much for my brother.”

 O: OK.

TT: Yeah, you can pray about that. You can pray about other people. You can pray about grandma's, grandpa’s, and your cousins. And you can pray about people in your school, your teachers and other students. And you bring those people to God.

So you can have adoration. Adoration is saying, I love you God because you're God.

You can have confession, which means you can say to God, you know what God? I sinned. I did something wrong. Right?

O: Yeah.

TT: You can have thanksgiving. We're saying thank you to God. Right? So thank you God for all the things that I did. 

And then here's a big word, supplication. Do you know what supplication means?

O: No.

 TT: No, so supplication is saying, God, I give you my life. I give you my life and I will live for you. You know what? Here's the really cool thing. Those four words that we talked about, they spell another word.

O: What's that word?

TT: The word is acts, A-C-T-S, adoration, confession, thanksgiving, supplication. We pray to God when we sin, don't we?

O: We say, "God, please help me with how I'm being with my sin, and that I hope you would take away my sin or lying."

TT: Yeah. That's right.

What Happened After Adam and Eve Ate the Fruit?

O: What happened after Adam and Eve ate the fruit?

TT: After Adam and Eve ate the fruit. They were aware of something wrong, right? What does it say? They were...

O: They were naked.

TT: They were naked. So what do you think that means?

O: It means that after they ate the fruit, then they sinned and they saw that they had no clothes.

TT: So why would it have been a sin for them not to have clothes after they ate the fruit and not before they ate the fruit?

O: They should have noticed that they didn't have clothes before they had the fruit, but God made them the way that He made them.

TT: Do you think that it was a sin because they started having thoughts that went away from worshipping God?

O: Yes.

 TT: So, one of the things that you really like is shoes, right? You really, really like shoes.

O: I love high heels.

TT: You love high heels, don't you?

O: Yeah.

 TT: You like your dresses, too, don't you?

O: Yeah.

TT: So, one of the things is that we will often covet things. It means that we will want things and those things that we want aren't bad in themselves. There's nothing wrong with your shoes. But what happens is that you look at other people's shoes and you say, “oh, I want that person's shoes.” Or you see another person's dress and you say,” oh, I want that person's dress.” Right? And then that means that in your heart you covet that thing and that's a sin. So when Adam and Eve saw that they were naked, there were things in their hearts that they desired that were outside of what God wanted for them in their lives. And so when God came to cover them, it was an act of God saying, "I am here to cover your sin." Remember he came and he gave them those skins to wear?

O: Yes.

TT: Yeah. But ultimately, to answer your question, God made them leave the garden. They could not stay in His presence anymore. They had to leave the garden.

O: Forever?

TT: Well, what happens in the end? After we've died, we're going to stand before God, and we're going to be held accountable for our sin, right? God's going to say, "You sinned, and you don't deserve to be in heaven with me."

O: And they're going to stay out of heaven for a little while, and they're gonna think about what they did in the beginning. And then they're gonna say, "Okay, God, I'm ready to come to your heaven. And I'm gonna tell you this because I want to. I'm sorry that I sinned and I need to let you forgive me.”

TT: Do you think that's enough?

O: No.

TT: I've got a secret for you. Everybody who's going to spend in their eternity in hell believes in God, but they will not be allowed in heaven. Why do you think that is?

O: Because they've sinned against him in the beginning or in the middle or in the end of the Christianity.

TT: So Jesus came to die, right? We talked about that. Jesus came to accept the responsibility for all of our sins and die for that sin, right? What's our responsibility?

O: Our responsibility is to stay with Jesus and be thoughtful about Him and watch, and watch, and do stuff that He has done before.

TT: Our responsibility is to accept the sacrifice that Jesus made, and to believe that Jesus came for us. If we don't believe that, we will not spend eternity with Him in heaven.

O: And we won't be able to be with Him.

TT: That's right. And when we get judged, when God calls us to be responsible for our lives. Do you think he will let us in with him?

O: Yes. uh, no, or anything.

TT: Do you think you deserve to be in heaven? Do you remember we talked about being good and being bad right at the beginning? Do you think you can be good enough to be in heaven?

O: Well, We’re Christians.

TT: Well, what does that mean?

O: It means that when we stand and then we should ask God in our prayers to help us. Help us with everything that we need help with and be very quiet before we say something that we shouldn't and think about what we should say before we say that.

TT: But see this is bigger than just discipline. This is bigger than what mommy and I do to discipline you. There's only one way. It doesn't matter if you say, “I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry,” after God has judged you and sent you to hell. He's not going to let you back into heaven. You have to make a decision now. You have to say, “Jesus, I understand that you came to die for me. And I understand that there's nothing that I can do on my own to get to heaven. That I have sinned, and that sin needs to be paid. And I can't pay that by myself.” You have to say, “I love you and I accept the sacrifice you made for me, that I accept you into my heart.” And then for the rest of your life, you live in a way that reflects the fact that God is in your heart and you believe in God, you believe in Jesus. And you tell other people about him. Because if you actually believe in God and you believe in Jesus, you will be very happy. You'll be excited about it and you'll let other people know.

Why Do We Do Things God Told Us Not to Do?

O: Why do we sin and do things that God told us not to do?

TT: Well, here's the thing about sin. It's different than discipline. Remember we talked a little bit earlier. Going to your room to think about what you did? That's not the way it works with God. Okay? God doesn't send us to a place to think about what we did. God says you need to make a decision right now as to how you are going to live. And the problem is, we do things every day that are sinful. It's very important for you to understand that this is very different than being disciplined by mommy and I.

O: It's very different than being disciplined by parents.

TT: Yes, it is. So, here's the problem with sin, here's the problem. We sin all the time, don't we? And God isn't going to say to you, I want you to sit and think about what you've done. God will say, I never knew you. Go away from me. That's what God's going to say. And so when we believe in God, when we accept God into our hearts when we say, "Oh dear God, I’m a sinner, please save me." What happens is that our lives should change. What that means is when we do something that we know is wrong. When you get angry at your brother and you yell and scream at him, if you really truly love God, you will go to him and you will say, "I'm sorry, Eduard. I should not have screamed at you. Would you please forgive me?”

O: And then he will forgive me.

TT: He doesn't have to.

O: Yeah. 

TT: It shows where your heart is right? If you love God, you're gonna act in a way that honors God

O: Yeah.

TT: And we never asked people for forgiveness expecting them to give it. The other thing too is you say to him, “I'm sorry. What I did to you was wrong.” Because it shows what's in your heart, right?

O: And if I yell and scream, I yell at mom because I don't want to play. I won't and maybe I should, like, think about if I want to yell and scream, or say, “sorry”; or give you guys a hug and then say, “sorry” and then let you guys forgive me or not.

TT: Yeah, and you know what? Like, we watched a movie about the depression, didn't we?

O: Yeah. 

TT: And sometimes during the depression when people didn't have any money and they were They were desperately hungry. They would steal food. And even in that time it was wrong. But you know what? Two people were sinning. The person who stole was sinning. But you know who else was sinning?

O: Who?

TT: The person that made it so that person had to steal. When somebody kills another person, they sin. Why do they sin? because they have anger. And the reason they have anger is not because they're trying to protect themselves. But because they feel that they have the right to take somebody else's life.

O: Yup.

TT: And you don't. You don't have the right to take anything from somebody else. Whether that's their life or candy. They're both sins.

Why Do People Sin

O: Last question.

TT: Last question, okay. 

O: And this is a...

TT: Okay.

O: Why do people sin and steal?

TT: Why do people sin and steal? Well, we'll go all the way back to the beginning. It's because our hearts are evil. Our hearts desire things that aren't ours. And that's sinful. That's why we become jealous. That's why we say things to people that hurt them.

O: Or maybe when we ask someone if they can borrow the computer or write something. And they say, “No, we can't.” We  just secretly go in there and take it. And then when they go to write something on there, then they can't find it.Then that means that we sinned.

TT: When you go and take something, with someone who has said you can't, that means that you have decided in your heart that you don't care what that person said.

O: Yeah.

 TT: And that's what the sin is. It's doing something willfully against another person or against God. And that sin. Sin is missing the mark. You know what that means?

O: No.

TT: Okay, so in Winnipeg right now, there's a huge Championship archery tournament and I've driven past it a few times and there's hundreds of hundreds of people that are shooting arrows at targets. And what God says to us is. “you should always work at hitting the mark and hitting the bullseye.” And what happens is that we do things against God and against other people, and we don't hit the mark. We miss the mark.

O: Because when you miss the mark, then God will say, "You're not going to be allowed in my...um...what's it called? Pallace, and you'll have to stay in hell for...like...for...all the time that you're in heaven."

TT: Well, you won't go to hell or to heaven, honey. There's only two places that you're going to go forever. You're either going to be in the presence of God, if you love God, and you ask God to come into your heart, and you live in a way that shows God you love Him; or, you'll go to hell. And like I said earlier, everyone in hell is going to believe in God.

O: Yep.

TT: You know why?

O: Why?

TT: Because when we die, we will all be judged and we will all stand before God and nobody can say, “Well, I didn't think you believed, or I didn't think you existed, or I didn't think you were serious, or look at me I'm good enough, Let me in.” God's going to say, “You're full of sin and you did not accept the sacrifice of Jesus.” You know what your responsibility is?

O: Mine is to stick with God.

TT: Yeah.

Prayer

O: Yeah, Let's pray.

TT: You want to pray?

O: No, you.

TT: Me?

O: Yeah.

TT: Oh, okay. So we'll close in prayer.

Father God, I just thank you for this time I could have with Olivia talking about sin, talking about heaven, hell, the sacrifice you made, the promises that you made; and the fact that You came to pay the price, that we could never pay on our own. The price for our sin. I pray that as Olivia grows up, she would understand the cost of sin in her life, and how important it is for her to look to you, and to live for you, and to accept you into her heart. So she can spend an eternity with you, praising you forever, that she should be happy with You forever. I pray this in your name. Amen